tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25253203.post7107957543706214041..comments2023-07-04T08:14:16.030-05:00Comments on Eyes Open Wide: The Coming Evangelical CollapseDoulos Christouhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04575598875038475380noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25253203.post-86322329588642457952011-10-20T06:36:24.199-05:002011-10-20T06:36:24.199-05:00This is a wonderful post! Thanks for sharing your ...This is a wonderful post! Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us! I hope to read more of your post which is very informative and useful to all the readers. I salute writers like you for doing a great job!<br /><br /><a href="http://www.prophecology.com/" rel="nofollow">Master propet</a>Bishop Jordanhttp://www.prophecology.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25253203.post-50078102821037961942009-05-01T11:18:00.000-05:002009-05-01T11:18:00.000-05:00Durin,
I'd rather talk about the boundaries on wh...Durin,<br /><br /><I>I'd rather talk about the boundaries on what Orthodoxy can do and the ways that it can be corrupted besides by becoming heresy.</I>Orthodoxy (right belief) and orthopraxy (right behavior) are not at all inconsistent. They do not need “balance” – they can both be pursued fully and, rightly understood, neither diminishes of the other. (It should be obvious that when talking about "orthodoxy" I am not talking about academic knowledge for its own sake, which is ultimately vanity.) <br /><br />Scripture does establish, though, a <B>sequential priority</B> to the two concepts. This is important to understand, because<br /><br />1. Orthopraxy <B>will always</B> (and necessarily) follow orthodoxy; and <br /><br />2. On the other hand, orthopraxy <B>can not</B> exist without orthodoxy. <br /><br /><B><I>Said more plainly, the more Biblical your thinking becomes (particularly about God), the more Biblical your life will become.</I></B> That is, by the way, what Paul is referring to when he calls us to be transformed by the renewal of our minds. It underlies the truth in Jesus’ summation of all of the Law and Prophets, and in his priority of identifying which is “the first” commandment. <br /><br />Inda,<br /><br /><I>To state that anyone one of us has a "lock" on orthodoxy would be arrogant and wrong.</I>You ask how we are to decide this in light of contrary positions held by sincere believers. We are individually responsible for that ourselves, and the Elders of a local church have responsibility for that corporately. Thankfully, if they study the Scripture God has clearly promised to lead them in this task. Also, while not inerrant, they have a wealth of thinking from the church historic to aid them in this process, identifying prior errors and clarifying positions. Sadly, too often, Elders shirk this responsibility and spend their time doing "deacon" things or acting like a corporate board - the failure on local leadership's part greatly contributes to this problem. <br /><br />There is also some level of uncertainty, but I take it that you’re not buying my point that the Evangelical church is on a down-grade slide, with more and more “essentials” becoming uncertain and debatable. Prior posts have identified a number of examples of this, and I’m concerned for the reasons stated in my note to Durin above.<br /><br />To repeat myself: <B>It is arrogant and wrong to call what God has clearly revealed in the Bible as unclear and subject for debate!</B> With history as witness, this is precisely what the Evangelical church (movement and too often local) is doing. I understand that we are all fallible humans, but I think that the general Biblical illiteracy increasingly common in our experience contributes greatly to the uncertainty of what the Bible actually says – and those who don’t learn from the past are destined to repeat it.<br /> <br />Durin, Indafog and Stephen,<br /><br />I’m thinking we may be all talking past each other on this. FYI, I’m posting something new today (and this comment thread has evolved pretty far from the original post), so I’d invite you to weigh in on the new post. But if you’re interested, I’d welcome your opinion on a particular <B>hypothetical</B> situation that might help illustrate better the concept. If you want to weigh in, email me at nopearlsB4swine@gmail.com.Doulos Christouhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04575598875038475380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25253203.post-51824493258117151172009-05-01T00:25:00.000-05:002009-05-01T00:25:00.000-05:00I have to say that I tend to agree with Durin... ...I have to say that I tend to agree with Durin... Arguing Orthodoxy has its limits. <br /><br />It assumes you can get everyone to agree on what orthodox is. There are Godly people out there that sincerely love and follow Christ that disagree on some points of Orthodoxy. Is the church local or universal only "orthodox" if it agrees with Doulos, Steven, Durin or myself? If I disagree with Durin who's unorthodox? If steven disagrees with Doulos on something, who's unorthodox. Does majority rule? He who yells doctrine the loudest wins? To state that anyone one of us has a "lock" on orthodoxy would be arrogant and wrong. The word Grace comes to mind here. The Bible was not meant to answer all questions just the ones we need. The word faith comes to mind here. God does not describe in great detail how a timeless God interacts with linear time. If He did would we understand it? He does not actually go into great depth on a number of subjects I sometimes wish He had. Some I can think of are:<br /><br />Creation: Where do dinosaurs fit in anyway?<br /><br />Time: Ok God created time, gave us free will and maintains sovereignty, omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence. How? In linear time those don't appear to fit well.<br /><br />End Times: Oh...a translation key to Revelation would have been nice as well. Many questions there and, darnit, He held true to Jesus' words in Matthew...<br /><br />My point is there are some things that we have to say, "I don't know."<br /><br />Can we live with the unknowns? Is our faith big enough? Is our grace for our brothers big enough to allow them to "not know"? If I state I don't know, or a pastor, or teacher says, "I don't know" are we graceful enough to handle that? Do we have enough faith to let God handle that instead of us? <br /><br />Calvinism - There are points of Calvinism that I simply look at and go I don't know. I don't see the answer that some theologians and pastors point at. I'm not there yet. May never be. Am I a heretic? <br /><br />Creationism - I tend to answer that one with an I don't know too. I fall to 7 days because it makes me feel like God is bigger, but do I have an real scriptural evidence for it... not really. So, I fall in the "I don't know" category. Am I a heretic?<br /><br />Outside the essentials, "Salvation issues" or in my mind the Apostles Creed, I think I don't know is a legitimate answer that should be more readily accepted.<br /><br />(Yes, there are risks to this. A wondering from doctrine because of "too many I don't knows". The other risk is too many answers that should have been "I don't knows" Making up an answer is not necessarily better than not having one. Risks noted) <br /><br />2. Orthodoxy is a means not the end. Orthodoxy is a means to understanding God but is not the end of knowing God. <br /><br />Doulos and I find some disagreement in my next statement:<br />Doulos has said the "gospel" is not a relationship it is a belief structure. Depending on how you define the term Gospel that may be true, but CHRISTIANITY IS ALL ABOUT RELATIONSHIP. The Bible is all about how WE lost relationship with God and HIS seeking to get it back. Yes, Orthodoxy is part of the picture but the whole relationship it does not make.<br /><br /><br />IndafogIndafoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04047641874884880389noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25253203.post-87443003510364613792009-04-30T21:00:00.000-05:002009-04-30T21:00:00.000-05:00Doulos,
As far your interest, my first post kicke...Doulos,<br /><br />As far your interest, my first post kicked off with "style vs substance" - how we do things. You seem to want to talk about "Evangelicalism's decline in orthodoxy" and "talking about what we believe." I also brought up deeds vs creeds (from your blog article) and "by their fruit you will recognize them". <br /><br />My emphasis is different from yours. This part seemed to be a little lite in the blog so this is the direction I went. You do not seem to keep wanting to going this area. That's fine. I have no desire to argue over Orthodoxy. (I'm for it.) I'd rather talk about the boundaries on what Orthodoxy can do and the ways that it can be corrupted besides by becoming heresy.<br /><br />(That M/Durin guy)Durinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02443155351719292706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25253203.post-87938120960513107752009-04-30T20:42:00.000-05:002009-04-30T20:42:00.000-05:00Stephen,
Regarding your comment "This is not refe...Stephen,<br /><br />Regarding your comment "This is not referring to the gospel message and the core doctrinal teaching that transforms lives."<br /><br />See my comment to Doulos (from Durin) at 10:09 PM. The specific knowledge that is being discussed in the context of that chapter is:<br /><br />“there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.”<br /><br />This sounds like core doctrinal truth to me.<br /><br />From the rest of your post I can safely say you do not put "Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up." into your working out of proper role of knowledge vis-a-vis faith and love as saying that we should not obtain knowledge. Good. No one on this blog has claimed that, which is good since the verse does not say that.<br /><br />Since that is what you do NOT do with the verse, what DO you do with it?<br /><br />(That M/Durin guy)Durinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02443155351719292706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25253203.post-17155973679789630592009-04-30T20:28:00.000-05:002009-04-30T20:28:00.000-05:00Yes, sorry for any confusion. It took me awhile to...Yes, sorry for any confusion. It took me awhile to notice that Indafog signed posts as "M". Not the same as M/Durin. (I have two accounts and am not strict on where I post from.)Durinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02443155351719292706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25253203.post-83596811552665449782009-04-30T00:19:00.000-05:002009-04-30T00:19:00.000-05:00Rest assured Wes... M is not me, and I am not M ev...Rest assured Wes... M is not me, and I am not M even though that's the beginning of my name. Since you know my name I signed that last message the same way I sign all my messages. Sorry for the confusion.<br /><br />MTH<br />IndafogIndafoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04047641874884880389noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25253203.post-30974503099570176872009-04-29T13:44:00.001-05:002009-04-29T13:44:00.001-05:00I agree, Doulos. Love of men results from true lo...I agree, Doulos. Love of men results from true love of God. And love of God comes from knowledge...knowledge ABOUT the God we love. We cannot love someone we do not know (e.g. in marriage), and the more we know about someone, the more we can really love that person (not some false idea of the person). <br /><br />The same with God. If we do not know the TRUE God of the Bible, we end up loving a false God. And it is only through the knowledge of God...as COMPLETE a knowledge as possible...that we come to love Him more. And the more complete our knowledge of Him, the more genuine and powerful is our love for others.<br /><br />This only comes about by the guarding of biblical doctrine...ALL of it. This is why Paul constantly hammers this home in books like Timothy and Titus, because He knows that when we get off the doctrinal path, no matter how much "good" we do for others, only spiritual disaster will follow.Stephennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25253203.post-1148426244489168552009-04-29T13:44:00.000-05:002009-04-29T13:44:00.000-05:00I agree, Doulos. Love of men results from true lo...I agree, Doulos. Love of men results from true love of God. And love of God comes from knowledge...knowledge ABOUT the God we love. We cannot love someone we do not know (e.g. in marriage), and the more we know about someone, the more we can really love that person (not some false idea of the person). <br /><br />The same with God. If we do not know the TRUE God of the Bible, we end up loving a false God. And it is only through the knowledge of God...as COMPLETE a knowledge as possible...that we come to love Him more. And the more complete our knowledge of Him, the more genuine and powerful is our love for others.<br /><br />This only comes about by the guarding of biblical doctrine...ALL of it. This is why Paul constantly hammers this home in books like Timothy and Titus, because He knows that when we get off the doctrinal path, no matter how much "good" we do for others, only spiritual disaster will follow.Stephennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25253203.post-41810246295129765692009-04-29T13:12:00.000-05:002009-04-29T13:12:00.000-05:00Stephen,
Well said. It is, of course, knowledge ...Stephen,<br /><br />Well said. It is, of course, knowledge of the Truth that leads to transformation of our lives in the first place!<br /><br />I do NOT believe that love doesn't matter. On the other hand, it is the result of embracing knowledge of God.<br /><br />And people who <B>love God</B> want to know Him. They are passionate about representing Him well (by action and by testimony). They are jealous for His character. They even get angry when people misrepresent Him - and especially so when those doing it claim to be His representatives.Doulos Christouhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04575598875038475380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25253203.post-70038380436057356602009-04-29T11:36:00.000-05:002009-04-29T11:36:00.000-05:00"Ok. Then what you're saying is that you are not i...<I>"Ok. Then what you're saying is that you are not interested in my first post. (Just in case this was confusing, Indafog is a different poster than M/Durin.)</I>I re-read your prior comments (starting with the 1st one at comment 17) and I'm hard-pressed to see how you can reasonably conclude that "I'm not interested." <br /> <br />By the way, Indafog identified himself as "M" pretty early in this exchange (for example, comments 3, 5, 7, etc.) and "M/Durin" posted later. <B>As a matter of fact, "Indafog" specifically identified himself as "M" in the "deleted comment" above.</B> In addition, Inda has responded (in comments above and in emails) to responses I've given to M/Durin in a way that has led me to think I'm talking to one person who attends my local church. If that's the case, I think good communication (and common church membership) calls for inperson discussion rather than a blog-comment conversation.<br /><br />But assuming I'm wrong about that, I've likely confused comments.Doulos Christouhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04575598875038475380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25253203.post-81228080201193323192009-04-29T11:24:00.000-05:002009-04-29T11:24:00.000-05:00Durin:
In answer to your question "Finally, while...Durin:<br /><br />In answer to your question "Finally, while mapping out the proper role of knowledge vis-a-vis faith and love, where do you put:<br /><br />"Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up."?<br /><br />...that verse (1 Cor 8:1) is in the context of food offered to idols. This is not referring to the gospel message and the core doctrinal teaching that transforms lives. In Vs 4, Paul defines the "knowledge" he is referring to, and it has nothing to do with what we are talking about here.<br /><br />Of course I agree with you that knowledge doesn't stand alone. But it certainly must precede faith, and the love that results from true belief. To quote 1 Cor 8:1 as an indictment of biblical knowledge and doctrine is to completely miss the point, and is a misleading kind of proof-texting. Please don't do that.<br /><br />If one were to take that verse out of context, one would have to avoid all knowledge for fear of being "puffed up." Clearly not a biblical conclusion. The fact that some Christians do sin by allowing ANY kind of knowledge to lead to pride is not a reason to ignore the teaching of scripture regarding the importance of clear, defining doctrine.Stephennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25253203.post-34724050698901494482009-04-28T22:47:00.000-05:002009-04-28T22:47:00.000-05:00But hey, its your blog. You don't wanna talk about...But hey, its your blog. You don't wanna talk about, you don't wanna.Durinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02443155351719292706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25253203.post-67483028368367749992009-04-28T22:42:00.000-05:002009-04-28T22:42:00.000-05:00Ok. Then what you're saying is that you are not in...Ok. Then what you're saying is that you are not interested in my first post. (Just in case this was confusing, Indafog is a different poster than M/Durin.)Durinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02443155351719292706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25253203.post-77118916712054044172009-04-28T22:25:00.000-05:002009-04-28T22:25:00.000-05:00M/D,
1) Ok
2) Whaa?? "Part of what does concern...M/D,<br /><br />1) Ok<br /><br />2) Whaa?? "Part of what does concern me is not just what we do but also how we do it." OK, but I'm talking about what we believe.<br /><br />3) I understand what you are trying to say (I think), but your implication is that there is somehow a danger in "superior knowledge". OK, Paul (and I would agree) - but this isn't my point.<br /><br />Could you interact with me at all on the point of my post(s), which is about Evangelicalism's decline in orthodoxy? That is my point. There are always other issues to raise, but I wish we could interact on the point I raised.<br /><br />I'm shutting down comments on this post... if you'd like to discuss this further (and I'd welcome it), let's get together to do so.Doulos Christouhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04575598875038475380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25253203.post-47555785066653171682009-04-28T22:09:00.000-05:002009-04-28T22:09:00.000-05:00OK, I'll give it another shot. My last comment had...OK, I'll give it another shot. My last comment had three sections:<br /><br />1)I do not have a thesis I am trying to prove. The game I am NOT playing is:<br /><br />“Doulos believes proposition “XYZ” but I believe proposition “ABC”. Ha, this verse will prove him wrong and me right.”<br /><br />Instead, I have quoted verses that seemed germane to fleshing out the discussion. Some aspects might reinforce what you've said, some implications might contradict what you've said, and some might just round out and give more emphasis to some parts. My objective is to get a full and balanced picture from God's Word, not to prove my pet proposition. (And I do not always know everything that will come out from the verses. One thing I like about Scripture is that it is deep and pondering it often leads to something new.) <br /><br />2)Part of what does concern me is not just what we do but also how we do it. Filling in all the right bubbles on the doctrine multiple choice test can still lead to failure. Yes, I know that you agree with this if I pose it to you as a matter of theological theory. To repeat what I said in part 1, sometimes the implications of the verses I quote might be to just add more emphasis of focus on something.<br /><br />3)Final comment was just humility. I do not know if the “gaps that need rounded out” are something that you need to hear right now. If you already excel in living in the way that the verses that I've quoted would indicate, then maybe the only one who's benefited is me since this is useful for me to return to.<br /><br />To go a little farther with these thoughts, 1 Cor chapter 8 actually packs a lot of things into a few verses. (God is talented that way.) Yes, it deals with how we use our freedom. Something else to notice:<br /><br />From v4 (“*We* know...” emphasis added) and v7 (“But not everyone knows this.” as well as the way the rest of the chapter talks to the reader) it sounds like Paul is writing to people who have superior knowledge. And the way the latter part of the chapter is written I'm guessing that his audience understands it, and applies it correctly in their reasoning.<br /><br />What knowledge? Concepts like:<br /><br />“there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.”<br /><br />It looks to me like they have foundational knowledge, of the type that would be put in creeds. And yet right off the bat in the beginning of the discourse on food sacrificed to idols Paul is warning them on their attitude due to their knowledge. Before he ever gets to the impact of their actions on the community, he talks about the impact of their knowledge on their egos.<br /><br />At least in my eyes, this seemed like a relevant piece of scripture to ponder and remember that has both theoretical and practical application.Durinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02443155351719292706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25253203.post-40574371779097338932009-04-22T22:15:00.000-05:002009-04-22T22:15:00.000-05:00M,
I'm not following your last comment... can you...M,<br /><br />I'm not following your last comment... can you help me out?Doulos Christouhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04575598875038475380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25253203.post-59582883654043774712009-04-22T21:23:00.000-05:002009-04-22T21:23:00.000-05:00Doulos... Their response is irrelevant... Why lea...Doulos... Their response is irrelevant... Why leave the out??? They behave badly so what? The warning given still stands it needs no outs based on others behavior.Indafoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04047641874884880389noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25253203.post-37725844223633160032009-04-20T22:16:00.000-05:002009-04-20T22:16:00.000-05:00M,
Your last comment came in while I was writing ...M,<br /><br />Your last comment came in while I was writing my thoughts on your comment to Stephen. Boy, I'm confused.<br /><br />I'll take your warning to heart. I'd ask that you consider the reaction typically given to people who raise issues like this, too.<br /><br /><I><B>Well all, I think we've exhausted this comment thread...</B></I>Doulos Christouhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04575598875038475380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25253203.post-26601821648675279942009-04-20T22:03:00.000-05:002009-04-20T22:03:00.000-05:00M,
You really can't prove your point by pulling v...M,<br /><br />You really can't prove your point by pulling verses WAY out of context.<br /><br />Galatians 5:6 is part of Paul's argument against the Judaizers (who were distorting the Gospel), specifically addressing their claim of the requirement of circumcision. <br /><br />1 Corinthians 8:1, which you cite, is discussing the problem of the misuse of Christian liberty (specifically, eating meat sacrificed to idols when it caused the weaker brother to stumble). The point being made is that we don't use superior knowledge to trump the importance of community. It certainly does not stand for the proposition that knowledge about God is secondary or doesn't matter.<br /><br />In both cases, it is a proper understanding of doctrine that Paul is advocating!<br /><br />You seem to want to draw some kind of distinction between "knowledge" on the one hand and "faith and love" on the other. The entire testimony of the Bible is that you can not separate them. <br /><br />Proverbs 19:2 says <I>"It is not good to have zeal without knowledge, nor to be hasty and miss the way."</I> Further (and in context), Paul rejected the zeal of the Jews specifically on this basis, when he said in Romans 10:2-3 that <I>"...I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God <B>and sought to establish their own</B>, they did not submit to God's righteousness.</I> (emphasis added)<br /><br />I am NOT saying that we should have knowledge without works. Neither is Stephen. You seem to be arguing that works (love) are more important than knowledge. Is that what you are trying to say?Doulos Christouhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04575598875038475380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25253203.post-20780892860259231022009-04-20T21:59:00.000-05:002009-04-20T21:59:00.000-05:00Doulos,
So far I have not tried to make "my point...Doulos,<br /><br />So far I have not tried to make "my point", but only to draw attention to scripture that seemed relevant. ;)<br /><br />I will go ahead and say what I am thinking - I am taking you even more seriously than what you have said. :) Not only is _your_ call to return to Biblical accuracy in what we profess, but I have considered that God may have given you a calling to do so. In that case, _living_ by 1 Cor 13 will be critical for you. I submit that the Spirit of God put in the part about knowledge specifically to warn those that defend knowledge and truth. If we succeed over the course of our lives in moving Evangelicals to closely adhere to Biblical accuracy, but they do not live lives of agape, then we will have failed. Biblical accuracy will then for all practical purposes be disassociated with God, for "God is love". A crazy result. The ultimate message that we would end up giving is that you should avoid the Bible if you want to know God.<br /><br />(I do not know if you need this idea right now, or if this is just something to keep in mind over the years in the future, or if this has just been a good exercise for me to remember. I also put a fair value in knowing Scripture.)Durinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02443155351719292706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25253203.post-68523986766241997632009-04-20T21:28:00.000-05:002009-04-20T21:28:00.000-05:00Stephen,
I quite agree that:
"... faith comes fr...Stephen,<br /><br />I quite agree that:<br /><br />"... faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ."<br /><br />I submit that this should not stand alone, but be held with:<br /><br />"The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love."<br /><br />I do not think anyone in this thread was claiming that the love of the believer is generated on its own for:<br /><br />"We love because he first loved us."<br /><br />Finally, while mapping out the proper role of knowledge vis-a-vis faith and love, where do you put:<br /><br />"Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up."?Durinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02443155351719292706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25253203.post-56190638218180414192009-04-18T10:03:00.000-05:002009-04-18T10:03:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Doulos Christouhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04575598875038475380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25253203.post-69088865057629493442009-04-18T10:02:00.000-05:002009-04-18T10:02:00.000-05:00M,
I understand your point. I certainly agree tha...M,<br /><br />I understand your point. I certainly agree that our lives ought to be a testimony to Christ and that we ought to be Christ-like in lifestyle. But that alone isn't enough. We're called to "always be able to give an account of the hope that is within us" as well as to live it out. <br /><br />Christianity is first and foremost a "belief-system". There are many people (take many Mormons for example) whose lives are loving but, because of what they believe remain headed for Hell under God's wrath. <br /><br />My call is NOT to ignore our lifestyle but to return to Biblical accuracy in what we profess. The Evangelical movement has strayed a LONG way from this when the issues discussed here are up for debate.Doulos Christouhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04575598875038475380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25253203.post-53479579313132976792009-04-17T20:49:00.000-05:002009-04-17T20:49:00.000-05:00Sorry: M = Durin. Sometimes I forget which account...Sorry: M = Durin. Sometimes I forget which account I am using.Durinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02443155351719292706noreply@blogger.com